Episode PO#01
How not to fall into a workshop trap?
Marcin Kokott & Mike Zacher & Maciej Stasiełuk
34m
Join Marcin, Maciek & Mike as they explore the full spectrum of workshop use cases, uncovering a comprehensive perspective on when investing your time and resources into workshops is genuinely worthwhile and when it might be more strategic to opt for different approaches.
Episode's transcription
Marcin: Hi, my name is Marcin Kokott, and welcome to Product Odyssey, the series where we explore how to build products fundamentally better. Today, with me are Mike and Maciej. Hi, guys.
Mike: Hi.
Maciej: Hello.
Marcin: We will be exploring how to approach workshops. When you hear about the beginning of collaboration, you often hear that we need to start with a workshop. What is in the back of your head when you think about that? What are the risks? Let’s begin. Can we do workshops better? Is it possible, or is there a limit to the market?
Understanding Workshops
Mike: We know situations where workshops brought great value and others where they were just a waste of time, which is really frustrating. So, yes, it's an interesting discussion. I think that our approach to workshops can definitely be improved.
Maciej: I have a challenge: We are building everything under the umbrella of workshops. Can you sell me workshops without mentioning the word "workshop"?
Mike: Sure. You need to know what you want to build, how you want to build it, and you want to de-risk the plan. You need to have the voices of the market, technology, and business connected together. That’s what you want. You don’t want a certain form or template; you want this covered.
Marcin: You want the product on the market in the end, right? You can achieve this with or without workshops. It’s just a matter of the approach you choose. Do you want those workshops, or can you achieve the same goal without them?
Maciej: Often in projects, we show that you can do this in multiple ways. We offer workshops and say this is the way, but we’re not saying you can do workshops or something different. This is the cost; this is the risk. Why don’t we do that?
Mike: It's a safe way of approaching it. If you're not sure, do the workshops. But quite often, it’s not necessary to achieve the goal.
Maciej: I think it’s also a methodical approach. If you use a certain template, you can show this to your investors. It’s safe. You get some results, right? You're doing work; you feel good about it because you’re spending your time on it and actually doing things.
Mike: It looks great. You have pre-made templates, a few slides after the workshop. But could you spend the time better?
Efficiency of Workshops
Maciej: Using the same cognitive effort you spend on filling out templates, maybe you can do it better.
Mike: Our experience shows there are multiple ways to improve this. You want to use your time efficiently and also the time of the experts who can give you meaningful insights.
Marcin: There’s also the question of being in the same boat. I want to know that we have the same mindset and understanding. It’s not about the workshop; it’s about alignment on the direction, what we want to build, and how.
Maciej: Exactly. There are a lot of misalignments you can have, like the experience of people in the workshops. A stakeholder can be new to IT projects or a serial entrepreneur. Different voices—market and technology—need to align.
Mike: You can have an idea that’s not feasible to implement because it’s either too costly or the tech isn’t there yet. Or it's so easy to implement that it’s not worth doing.
Marcin: It can be technological, business, or market risk. But the workshop is just a tool. The question is what will be after. I’m not buying a workshop; I’m buying collaboration and partnership to get a product that wins.
Goals of Workshops
Maciej: You can have multiple goals. One is knowing what to build and how. Another is getting advice on technology to reach your goals or aligning stakeholders. Different elements in the workshop address different needs.
Mike: Sometimes it’s cheaper to discuss this during workshops. It’s easier to discard a sticky note with an idea than a feature you’ve implemented and realize it’s unnecessary.
Marcin: We assume there’s a perfect plan and execution, especially in Western culture. The truth is you will mess up somehow. It’s cheaper and better to mess up early.
Maciej: We dropped the waterfall approach for a reason. Don’t bring it back with lengthy workshops. Move forward, evaluate hypotheses, and break things down the road.
Mike: You need continuous discovery. Start quickly, test quickly, and continue this throughout the project.
Maciej: You should do some groundwork in the beginning. Build some context that will be beneficial. Workshops are necessary to some degree.
Alternatives to Workshops
Marcin: Workshops are just one way to achieve results. You can achieve that understanding asynchronously or with short interactions and discussions.
Mike: Workshops are a generic word. They can be a one-hour kickoff meeting or a week-long design sprint. Both are technically workshops.
Maciej: Even doing things sequentially can be efficient. Preparing a business concept for others to understand, talking with one person, and ensuring everyone understands the concept can be more efficient than a room full of people listening to one person.
Mike: You need to build a common understanding, especially in R&D products with many unknowns. It’s a balance of doing this right.
Marcin: You’re building a team to experiment and learn. It’s critical to understand the problem and domain. Everyone needs to understand the assumptions, then come up with solutions, experiment, and learn.
Importance of Communication
Maciej: Communicate through text to structure things, but make sure you understand each other. Have NVC-like communication to confirm understanding and get feedback, especially with different roles.
Mike: It’s easy to misalign IT delivery teams and business teams. Business teams solve problems, and IT teams find solutions. Workshops help align these perspectives.
Maciej: All voices are important. The business voice includes company knowledge, vision, and what makes building the product fun. If you don’t cover this, you can end up with a plan you don’t want to implement.
Marcin: Include the voice of the market. Have an expert or real user in the workshop or go outside the workshop for continuous discovery. The market is moving faster than ever.
Flexibility in Workshops
Maciej: Sometimes you think you understand the market, but after launching, you realize people interact differently. Continuous discovery and making mistakes early are crucial.
Mike: Don’t assume you find the right solution in a workshop. New things will show up, and you need processes to evaluate quickly and stay on top.
Marcin: The longer we stick with one idea, the harder it is to change. Be ready for iterations and move fast.
Maciej: Planning is necessary, but do it wisely. The voice of technology is critical. Multiple points where technology should take responsibility can save time and money.
Mike: Technology experts with experience in similar solutions can avoid costly wrong decisions. Even fast prototypes can be expensive if done wrong.
Marcin: There are different angles to consider. Good workshops should make you aware of these.
Trust and Collaboration
Maciej: Trust and collaboration are essential. You need to discuss openly and trust that you’re getting meaningful advice.
Mike: You want to work with someone focusing on impact, not just outcomes. It’s beneficial for everyone to believe in the product.
Marcin: Workshops help infect others with your vision and enthusiasm. They help align everyone towards the same goal.
Maciej: Workshops can achieve this goal, but there are other ways too. You need the right partner and trust.
Mike: Trust and meaningful discussions lead to better insights and successful projects.
Summary
Marcin: Let’s summarize. When you hear "workshop," what should you think about?
Mike: Know your goals. Discuss with the person preparing the workshops how they will approach it. Be flexible and think about how to implement the results.
Maciej: Listen to all involved voices. Technical people have good intentions and want to solve your problem. Their suggestions are valuable.
Marcin: Workshops are about common goals and perspectives. They can be costly but necessary for alignment. Don’t assume they’re the final solution. Continuous discovery is crucial.
Mike: Workshops help achieve goals but are just one tool. Think about them as a way to achieve what you need, and there are multiple ways to do that.
Marcin: Great discussion. This opens the door to further topics on building products and continuous improvement. That’s all for this episode of Product Odyssey. Thank you, Mike and Maciej.
Mike: Thanks for having us.
Maciej: Thank you.
Marcin: Thank you for listening. Stay tuned for the next episode. Take care.
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Maciej Stasiełuk
Maciej has been working with multiple clients worldwide for over a decade, helping them translate their ideas into well-tailored products. He is passionate about continuously seeking process improvements and maximizing the Developer Experience for teams.
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Marcin Kokott
As a seasoned pro in the business world, he steered companies through product lifecycles for over a decade. At Vazco, Marcin focuses on delivering products fundamentally better — going beyond industry standards and familiar frameworks. He enjoys direct contact with business stakeholders and C-level, as it gives him the opportunity to influence and co-create the best products out there.
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Mike Zacher
With a deep passion for the latest technologies, Mike is committed to harnessing innovative solutions to improve global education, making it more accessible and effective for everyone. His dedication to leveraging technology for social good is at the core of Vazco's mission, driving the company's efforts to create impactful and transformative products.
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